[Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

Mon May 13 23:41:18 CDT 2013

OK, thanks to all for the clarification.  In addition to
your response I received a couple of very helpful direct
emails.  I was earlier getting input that indicated there
were electrical issues (as in "smoke and noise") and I'm
glad to hear that's not the case.

I'm willing to deal with the difference is curves, Claude
your description was very helpful.   As dimmable LED's get
more and more mainstream I expect them to more closely
approach incandescent dimming, but I could be wrong about
that.  I have no immediate plans to switch wholesale to
LED's, but I see the time coming.  I'm not super green, but
I do get tired of climbing ladders to replace a building
full of PAR bulbs and 50k hours has a certain attraction.
One day the operating cost vs installed cost will provide a
distinct incentive, but I don't plan to change just for the
sake of greenness.

With respect to low level dimming, I do have a useful
application that I've come to really like.   I use a button
on a bedside scene switch to light "paths" through the
house. for that trip to the bathroom or kitchen.   About 7%
to 9% on incandescent using ALC keeps you from stepping on
the cat without losing your night vision or waking up the
boss.   It'll take some testing to see how well I can
implement that using LED's.  I don't need to do that
immediately but I didn't want to put in 40 or 50 switches
and have to change them out again later.

By the way, I've noticed that in order to reply to the user
group you have to use "Reply All" or the message only goes
directly to the original message.

Dan

From: Tom Morgan [mailto:tom at worthdist.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:15 PM
To: Dan Barclay; hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: RE: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

The short answer:

The 1CFL is listed for LED and CFL.  Electrically they are
almost identical, the big difference is the ramping.  Simply
put, if you put an incandescent bulb on a 1CFL it will
electrically work; however, you will quickly say "Why is the
dimming curve so weird?"  Instead of a linear ramp rate it
will start at full, appear not to dim and then drop like a
brick, then off.  It doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just
is probably not what you are looking for.

Tom Morgan 
Chief Technical Officer, Worthington Distribution 
Vice President, Worthington University
 <http://www.worthingtonu.com/> www.worthingtonu.com
570-451-4700 ext 150

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From: hai-users-bounces at tssi.com
[mailto:hai-users-bounces at tssi.com] On Behalf Of Dan Barclay
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:56 PM
To: hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

OK, I'm about ready to pull the trigger on switching to HLC,
but now I'm getting input that some of what I read in the
HLC specs aren't really right.

I had intended to switch the dimmers out with 35A00-1's (now
have incandescent bulbs) then at a later date change from
incandescent to LED bulbs.  I'm told now that it won't work
well, or won't work though spec sheet says it will.

The 35A00-3 is similarly listed good for on/off generic
florescent lights, but I'm told it's not.

So, what's the scoop on this?  Anybody had these issues, or
experience that contradicts it?

That is, using dimmable LED's with the 35A00-1 successfully?
Or know of problems with them?

Dan

From: hai-users-bounces at tssi.com
[mailto:hai-users-bounces at tssi.com] On Behalf Of Dan Barclay
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 10:09 PM
To: hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

Thanks for the input Tom.

I've tried isolating but doing it alone was nearly
impossible without help, even though I'm wired in a star
(with sub-stars using the booster critters).  I only
"chained" when more than one switch was in a box, and not
always then.  Every line comes back to a punch block.  I was
fairly anal about it.  I even made sure the total line
length on an output is within their spec, and things worked
great for a while.  The lack of any troubleshooting device
is a big problem. you have to pull wires then go somewhere
else in the house (usually downstairs for me) to see if
something worked.  I have a storage scope but don't know
what the signal is supposed to look like, in addition it is
a pain to move around from box to box.    I went through a
few circuits but had little luck finding one device hogging
a line.  Like Eric I had one fail at local control (a dimmer
that locked in at about 40% On), but just the one.  It's
been on for a year or so now.  I may try again now that I
have the HAI iPhone app, but I don't hold much hope.
Frustration and disappointment levels are high and I'm not
sure I'm going to be happy even if I get most of them
working now.

Mixing technologies isn't always the way to go, but I may do
that for a while.  Dunno yet.  I keep looking at it and just
procrastinating out of frustration.  At least with the
OmniPro I do have that option to some extent.

It sounds like ZWave is out, the house is substantially
larger than you mentioned.

One plus is that I had them wire the Romex as if they were
going to put in standard switches.  I figured if I had
trouble with the initial install I could put in a basket
full of two dollar switches until I got my act together.
FWIW, I would always recommend doing that on any new
installation.  I also ran conduit (a lot of it flex) to any
wall that couldn't be reached from an attic space (yup, a
lot of it).

Another frustrating point is that a Lutron rep tried to sell
me on Radio RA, but it was before they had HAI
communication.  They were big on scene/home lighting but
didn't communicate anybody else at the time.  I require the
lighting to communicate with HAI or it may as well not be
automated so far as I'm concerned.  Their plus was that they
had more granular control, but the ALC I experimented with
was fine enough dimmer control for what I needed.  I note
that you said "RA2" so I guess I've got some catching up to
do on that.

It's too bad Lutron didn't have an HAI link at the time. It
seems my timing is always just a bit off (let's not talk
about markets or interest rates!).

Yes, your input helps.  I'm still not sure what I'm going to
do (or when) but I appreciate your input.  

Dan

From: hai-users-bounces at tssi.com
[mailto:hai-users-bounces at tssi.com] On Behalf Of Tom Morgan
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 1:06 PM
To: hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

Something to consider about ALC:  

- One device can bring down a whole branch so it is not
uncommon for an installer to think they have more devices
that are defective then really are.  Unless you have the
star hubs (most installs do not) that allow you to
electrically isolate the data connections, troubleshooting
can be difficult.  Removing power from a device is not
enough and air gapping the device does not affect the
communication connection.  You have to disconnect the date
connections on the loop and test each device one at a time.
Yes, I know..a pain. 

- In most cases fixing an ALC installation is less painful
then a conversion.  The complexity of changing to a
different technology is dependent on how things were wired.
When I teach ALC, I always coach dealers to have the Romex
run for 3-ways even if the communication was going to be low
voltage.  If that was not done then creating 3-ways is going
to require retrofitting Romex which is potentially costly.

- You inquired about lighting technologies with HAI.  The
four on the table would be HAI HLC (based on UPB), Leviton
Vizia RF (Z-Wave), Centralite Azela (releasing this month
based on ZigBee HA) and Lutron Radio Ra 2.

A quick pro/con

- HAI HLC -Pro: Our best selling solution with HAI
controllers, programs from PCAccess, track record for
reliability, lowest cost.  Con: UPB technology is tied to
the powerline so it only provides lighting control.

- Leviton Vizia RF: Our top selling Z-Wave lighting system,
programs via PC software, extremely flexible and uses
programming on the 8's with HAI, allows integration of other
Z-Wave products like locks.   Complete product line with fan
control and electronic low voltage.  Con: Maximum square
footage is 7,500 you have to set everything up in the
Leviton software and then type the node numbers into
PCAccess.

- Centralite Azela:  The first ZigBee HA devices that works
with HAI (shipping in the next week or so), lighting fast
communication, allows communication with other ZigBee HA
devices like locks and thermostats (see our on-line class on
8/16), Zigbee RF is a proven networking technology.  Con: At
this point it is a lighting control device, other pieces
like multi-button keypads will follow making it a lighting
system.  The industry needs more ZigBee HA Pro devices.

- Lutron Radio Ra2: A proven track record for reliability
and acceptance among consumers and designers.  A complete
product line including LED/CFL support.  Flexible keypad
solutions.  Cons: The most expensive of the 4 systems,
training required to integrate with HAI.

I hope that helps.

Tom Morgan 
Chief Technical Officer, Worthington Distribution 
Vice President, Worthington University
 <http://www.worthingtonu.com/> www.worthingtonu.com
570-451-4700 ext 150

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