[NU Sports] No more Sweet Sioux Tomahawk

Sun Nov 23 12:40:20 CST 2008

I nominate a trophy of a piece of wood, with the trophy to be called the Lincoln Log.

-----Original Message-----
>From: CHerron604 at aol.com
>Sent: Nov 23, 2008 7:00 AM
>To: johnl at mac.com, yevb0 at alumni.northwestern.edu
>Cc: nwu-sports at tssi.com
>Subject: Re: [NU Sports] No more Sweet Sioux Tomahawk
>
>The question will become 'what is the new trophy ?'  and can it be as  
>memorable as
> 
>- a bronze statue of a pig that was originally a bet between the two  
>governors,
>- a pottery jug that Fielding Yost left behind in Minneapolis
> 
>There are also a turtle and a cannon that I don't know the back stories on,  
>although I hear that the turtle replaced a slab of bacon.
> 
>The two schools need to come up with a great looking, totally  inoffensive 
>trophy (better than the obviously invented 'land grant trophy'  between Penn 
>State and Michigan State), and an interesting back story.
> 
>Did Bob Zuppke ever leave anything in Evanston ?
> 
>Did Pappy Waldorf ever leave anything in Champaign ?
> 
>Did an Evanston kid ever swipe Red Grange's helmet/blanket/football cleats  
>when he wasn't looking ?
> 
>The schools can even claim the back story turned up after new research (the  
>kind that has produced some new wins in the early days, but hasn't quite  
>clarified the exact number of ten win seasons yet)
> 
>Both schools have marketing types (though you might not know that we did  
>from the way our teams are marketed) - put them to work on designing this  thing.
> 
>And make it very photogenic, so countless Sun-Times/Tribunes can be adorned  
>(as this morning's Sun-Times was) with a full-page shot of purple warriors  
>lifting it skyward (anything should photograph better with royal purple than  
>with gaudy orange...)
> 
>Chuck Herron   Tech '85
> 
> 
>In a message dated 11/22/2008 7:29:28 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
>johnl at mac.com writes:
>
>Without  ranting one way or the other, I just have a few observations  
>about  this whole discussion:
>
>1) First, Illinois is still the "Fighting  Illini," and they're not  
>changing that.  They're just getting  rid of what some consider  
>condescending and patronizing symbols of  Native Americans such as a  
>man who runs out on the field and  performs a ridiculous dance while  
>wearing a Native American  outfit.  Perhaps they're keeping the  
>"Illini" name only because  it doesn't actually refer to Native  
>Americans, but if that's the  case, then the Native American symbols  
>are even more ridiculous  because they don't even correspond to the name.
>
>2) Does anyone really  care that the Sweet Sioux trophy is going away?   
>I always  thought it was a little dumb.  Hopefully we can invent a new,   
>better trophy.  I can see why some might find it offensive as  it  
>associates Native Americans with a violent weapon that was  sometimes  
>used to kill and scalp people.  Personally, I  wouldn't want my culture  
>to be defined by such a symbol, much less  made into a trophy.
>
>3) With respect to the point that many other teams  have groups of  
>people for their nickname or mascot, I think Evan  makes a good point  
>that in most of those instances, the groups  represented don't have any  
>objection and represent a majority  group.
>
>I can't analyze every single example cited, but I'm familiar  with  
>one.  The "Ragin Cajuns" of the University of  Louisiana-Lafayette  
>essentially refers to drunken Cajuns.  But  seeing as the people in  
>south Louisiana are a bunch of Cajuns (and  stereotypically  
>alcoholics), at some point in the mid-1990s they  decided that maybe  
>using the image of a little drunk Cajun man  perhaps wasn't the best  
>reflection for the local culture.  So,  without changing the name, they  
>essentially rebranded.  Now,  the mascot is Cayenne the Pepper, and the  
>image of a little Cajun  man is seldom seen.  Indeed, according to the  
>current spin, a  "Ragin Cajun" isn't even a person, but rather "a  
>feeling that  describes [their] unique way of life."  (See  
>http://www.ragincajuns.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=15400&KEY=&ATCLID=858011)
>
>In  this case, the symbols weren't changed to be PC, but rather because   
>the controlling group didn't want to project itself anymore as a  bunch  
>of drunks.  Does a minority group not deserve the same  degree of  
>respect as the majority group?
>
>4) Suppose  Northwestern was still the Fighting Methodists.  Maybe the  
>name  would be OK, but would it be OK if a bunch of people dressed in   
>stereotypically Methodist clothing (whatever that might be) came out   
>at halftime and performed a mocking ritual?  With respect to  the  
>Illini (and the Ragin Cajuns), the names haven't been changed,  just  
>the symbols and and some of the customs.
>
>
>On Nov 22,  2008, at 6:24 PM, Evan Bradley wrote:
>
>> I was going to let this  entire conversation go without joining in, but
>> this has passed the  point of absurdity.
>>
>> The reason no one objects to the Sooners,  Irish, etc. are because they
>> don't represent downtrodden minorities  (that wasn't always so for the
>> Irish, but I digress...), and because  the imagery and the groups using
>> it are both members of the majority  culture.  It shouldn't be
>> surprising that some Native Americans  might object to Anglo Americans
>> using elements of their culture  (perhaps inaccurately) to 'honor' the
>> heritage of peoples who were  removed from their state to make way for
>> 'real' Americans.  I'm  sure a few of you would take offense to a
>> mostly-white school calling  their team the Negroes or the Japs, or a
>> HBCU the Whiteys or the  Jews.
>>
>> Of course, not all Native Americans were benevolent,  helpless victims;
>> of course, some groups might not mind their culture  being used by
>> teams; of course, books shouldn't be banned; my point is  that it seems
>> to me that those who complain most vociferously about  how 'Policial
>> Correctness' is cramping *their* style simply don't  recognize their
>> own privilege - privilege which gives them the ability  to demand that
>> they get to put their enjoyment of some silly sports  mascot above
>> another's culture and be taken seriously.  I know  it's hard, but try
>> taking someone else's perspective once in a  while.
>>
>> rant off
>>
>> go 'cats
>>
>> On  Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 7:42 AM, Randy Wilson <randy at 1702.org>  wrote:
>>> Why did the Lakota have to move?
>>>  -Randy
>>>
>>> Dennis W. Brandt wrote:
>>>>>  Interesting note, the "Sooners" were folk who were cheating to   
>>>>> claim
>>>>> land previously given to the  Indians after they were kicked off  
>>>>> of  their
>>>>> own land.
>>>>>  -Randy
>>>>
>>>> And the Lakota Sioux lived where they  did because in the early 19th
>>>> century, they drove off at least  sixteen other tribes and took their
>>>> land.  You can reduce  anything to absurdity by viewing it
>>>>  anachronistically.
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