[NU Sports] No more Sweet Sioux Tomahawk
CHerron604 at aol.com
CHerron604 at aol.com
Sun Nov 23 09:38:06 CST 2008
In Illinois politics we could go two ways
- A stovepipe hat
- a sealed indictment
Does that last translate well into a trophy ?
Chuck Herron Tech '85
In a message dated 11/23/2008 9:30:48 A.M. Central Standard Time,
eschoeman at sbcglobal.net writes:
I've heard that, given our game is between the state of Illinois' two BCS
Division 1-A football schools, there is consideration being given to
succeeding Sweet Sioux with The Blagojevich Trophy.
For those not familiar, Rod Blagojevich is Illinois' current governor.
Haven't heard of a design yet, so perhaps that's open for ideas.
-----Original Message-----
From: nwu-sports-bounces at tssi.com [mailto:nwu-sports-bounces at tssi.com] On
Behalf Of CHerron604 at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 9:00 AM
To: johnl at mac.com; yevb0 at alumni.northwestern.edu
Cc: nwu-sports at tssi.com
Subject: Re: [NU Sports] No more Sweet Sioux Tomahawk
The question will become 'what is the new trophy ?' and can it be as
memorable as
- a bronze statue of a pig that was originally a bet between the two
governors,
- a pottery jug that Fielding Yost left behind in Minneapolis
There are also a turtle and a cannon that I don't know the back stories on,
although I hear that the turtle replaced a slab of bacon.
The two schools need to come up with a great looking, totally inoffensive
trophy (better than the obviously invented 'land grant trophy' between Penn
State and Michigan State), and an interesting back story.
Did Bob Zuppke ever leave anything in Evanston ?
Did Pappy Waldorf ever leave anything in Champaign ?
Did an Evanston kid ever swipe Red Grange's helmet/blanket/football cleats
when he wasn't looking ?
The schools can even claim the back story turned up after new research (the
kind that has produced some new wins in the early days, but hasn't quite
clarified the exact number of ten win seasons yet)
Both schools have marketing types (though you might not know that we did
from the way our teams are marketed) - put them to work on designing this
thing.
And make it very photogenic, so countless Sun-Times/Tribunes can be adorned
(as this morning's Sun-Times was) with a full-page shot of purple warriors
lifting it skyward (anything should photograph better with royal purple than
with gaudy orange...)
Chuck Herron Tech '85
In a message dated 11/22/2008 7:29:28 P.M. Central Standard Time,
johnl at mac.com writes:
Without ranting one way or the other, I just have a few observations
about this whole discussion:
1) First, Illinois is still the "Fighting Illini," and they're not
changing that. They're just getting rid of what some consider
condescending and patronizing symbols of Native Americans such as a
man who runs out on the field and performs a ridiculous dance while
wearing a Native American outfit. Perhaps they're keeping the
"Illini" name only because it doesn't actually refer to Native
Americans, but if that's the case, then the Native American symbols
are even more ridiculous because they don't even correspond to the name.
2) Does anyone really care that the Sweet Sioux trophy is going away?
I always thought it was a little dumb. Hopefully we can invent a new,
better trophy. I can see why some might find it offensive as it
associates Native Americans with a violent weapon that was sometimes
used to kill and scalp people. Personally, I wouldn't want my culture
to be defined by such a symbol, much less made into a trophy.
3) With respect to the point that many other teams have groups of
people for their nickname or mascot, I think Evan makes a good point
that in most of those instances, the groups represented don't have any
objection and represent a majority group.
I can't analyze every single example cited, but I'm familiar with
one. The "Ragin Cajuns" of the University of Louisiana-Lafayette
essentially refers to drunken Cajuns. But seeing as the people in
south Louisiana are a bunch of Cajuns (and stereotypically
alcoholics), at some point in the mid-1990s they decided that maybe
using the image of a little drunk Cajun man perhaps wasn't the best
reflection for the local culture. So, without changing the name, they
essentially rebranded. Now, the mascot is Cayenne the Pepper, and the
image of a little Cajun man is seldom seen. Indeed, according to the
current spin, a "Ragin Cajun" isn't even a person, but rather "a
feeling that describes [their] unique way of life." (See
http://www.ragincajuns.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=15400&KEY=&ATCLID=8580
11)
In this case, the symbols weren't changed to be PC, but rather because
the controlling group didn't want to project itself anymore as a bunch
of drunks. Does a minority group not deserve the same degree of
respect as the majority group?
4) Suppose Northwestern was still the Fighting Methodists. Maybe the
name would be OK, but would it be OK if a bunch of people dressed in
stereotypically Methodist clothing (whatever that might be) came out
at halftime and performed a mocking ritual? With respect to the
Illini (and the Ragin Cajuns), the names haven't been changed, just
the symbols and and some of the customs.
On Nov 22, 2008, at 6:24 PM, Evan Bradley wrote:
> I was going to let this entire conversation go without joining in, but
> this has passed the point of absurdity.
>
> The reason no one objects to the Sooners, Irish, etc. are because they
> don't represent downtrodden minorities (that wasn't always so for the
> Irish, but I digress...), and because the imagery and the groups using
> it are both members of the majority culture. It shouldn't be
> surprising that some Native Americans might object to Anglo Americans
> using elements of their culture (perhaps inaccurately) to 'honor' the
> heritage of peoples who were removed from their state to make way for
> 'real' Americans. I'm sure a few of you would take offense to a
> mostly-white school calling their team the Negroes or the Japs, or a
> HBCU the Whiteys or the Jews.
>
> Of course, not all Native Americans were benevolent, helpless victims;
> of course, some groups might not mind their culture being used by
> teams; of course, books shouldn't be banned; my point is that it seems
> to me that those who complain most vociferously about how 'Policial
> Correctness' is cramping *their* style simply don't recognize their
> own privilege - privilege which gives them the ability to demand that
> they get to put their enjoyment of some silly sports mascot above
> another's culture and be taken seriously. I know it's hard, but try
> taking someone else's perspective once in a while.
>
> rant off
>
> go 'cats
>
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 7:42 AM, Randy Wilson <randy at 1702.org> wrote:
>> Why did the Lakota have to move?
>> -Randy
>>
>> Dennis W. Brandt wrote:
>>>> Interesting note, the "Sooners" were folk who were cheating to
>>>> claim
>>>> land previously given to the Indians after they were kicked off
>>>> of their
>>>> own land.
>>>> -Randy
>>>
>>> And the Lakota Sioux lived where they did because in the early 19th
>>> century, they drove off at least sixteen other tribes and took their
>>> land. You can reduce anything to absurdity by viewing it
>>> anachronistically.
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