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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In our commercial application we were looking for
1/10 degree temperature control for two reasons that I can recall.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>First, we were controlling temperature in
commercial buildings. There were some tenant complaints, often caused by issues
outside of our control. Stuff like excess radiant heat when the sun shone
through the windows, or oversized units, poor air balance, etc. When tenants
complained about comfort issues they sometimes would threaten the landlord to
withhold rent payment because their contract said something about the landlord
keeping the property comfortable. Tenants would often bring in their own
thermometers to track temperature. If there was a difference we had to go in and
prove our sensors were accurate to remove ourselves from the conflict. So we had
a NIST traceable thermometer we used as a temperature reference. Plus or minus 3
degrees was not good enough to win this argument.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Second, when installing systems with hundreds of
sensors the labor to field calibrate each and every one was huge. So it was much
better to connect and forget.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In the home, +/- 5% accuracy is more of a nuisance.
If you have only one humidity sensor it's probably not noticeable, but if you
have several and they read different it bugs you. It's like having every clock
in the house reading a five minutes different. You begin to question the quality
of the system. But 35-40% errors are nuts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=brett@architechtronics.com
href="mailto:brett@architechtronics.com">Brett Griffin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=kwschumm@qsolv.com
href="mailto:kwschumm@qsolv.com">'Ken Schumm'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=hai-users@tssi.com
href="mailto:hai-users@tssi.com">hai-users@tssi.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 13, 2006 10:45
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Hai-users] Temp sensors
accuracy again.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006>Ok, so I have read this conversation many times over
the years, and have heard different explanations. I have some questions,
please take a moment to read and don't get annoyed that I take a defensive
stance, I am really trying to create a good dialogue, and maybe HAI will read
this and make adjustments.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006>My few questions, What is everyone doing with these
temperature sensors that you need .1% accuracy? You cannot program
the HAI system to respond to decimal levels. So your programs have a 1
degree accuracy, and realistically thinking a 2 degree accuracy since you
cannot and should not write a two direction program with the temps setting
closer than 2 degrees.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006>I have an OP2, and I had about 4 temp and humidity
sensors hooked up to the system prior to my move to my new residence. I
used them for outside temp, and curious things like the temp inside my
controller, my basement, and my second floor. I could care less if the
temp outside was 14 degrees or 18 degrees, regardless I had to dress
warm.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006>Not I understand that there are some more critical
things like humidors and wine cellars, but even the accuracy is not going to
make a overall difference.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006>The point of the temperature sensor being next to the
thermostat, I can understand the frustration that they are off by a couple of
degrees. However taking the safe assumption that the error likely tracks
over the temperature range (i.e. your home temps swing about 25 degrees for
extremes) why not just adjust the thermostats to match the temp
sensor.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006>The same being true for humidity. What are you guys
doing that requires such high accuracy in your home? The application I
have run are like turning the bathroom fan on while taking a shower. The
humidity will climb close to 100% so I write rules that if it exceeds 70% turn
the fan on. If you have an air conditioned home, your humidity levels
will swing between 30-45% Much beyond those levels you got problems like
static electricity build up and mold. Again I don't see an application
that requires such high accuracy.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006>Now I understand the concerns of what's expected and
what's reflected are not the same thing and that is a legitimate
complaint.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006>Now to my next question, I am done Ranting, now I am
pondering...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006>If you could buy a $20 radio shack sensor and make it
work with the HAI system, would you buy them over the $80 temp sensor?
What if the accuracy was +/- 2 degrees. Would you buy one for general
use like I do, and buy the higher accuracy ones for humidors and wine cellars,
where the accuracy was more critical?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=953402806-14012006>Just trying to get insight to your concerns, and by
now means do I intend to derate your complaints.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Brett
Griffin<BR>Architechtronics<BR><A
href="http://www.architechtronics.com/">www.architechtronics.com</A><BR></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Brad [mailto:looney2ns@sigecom.net]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 13, 2006 5:46 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Ken
Schumm'<BR><B>Cc:</B> hai-users@tssi.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Hai-users]
Temp sensors accuracy again.<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Thanks for the replies Ken. Your
explanation makes lots of sense. Hadn’t thought of the wire length
issue.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">I’m comparing the readings to a $300
Kestrel 4100 Pocket HVAC tool.<BR>Its temp specs are +/- 1.8
degrees.<BR>Humidity specs are +/- 3%<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">I also have 3 of the Radio Shack
gauges, and those and the Kestrel agrees with each other within a few tenths
of each other on temp and Humidity.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
hai-users-bounces@tssi.com [mailto:hai-users-bounces@tssi.com] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Ken Schumm<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, January 13, 2006 4:59
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Brad<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> hai-users@tssi.com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Hai-users] Temp sensors
accuracy again.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Just curious, if your humidity readings
are off what are you comparing them to? I believe the Radio Shack humidity
sensor is accurate to +/- 5 %. If the HAI is also +/- 5% the difference
between the two could be 10% and they'd be within
specs.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=looney2ns@sigecom.net href="mailto:looney2ns@sigecom.net">Brad</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=Guy.Wenzel@capella.edu href="mailto:Guy.Wenzel@capella.edu">'Wenzel,
Guy'</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=hai-users@tssi.com
href="mailto:hai-users@tssi.com">hai-users@tssi.com</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Friday, January 13, 2006 2:00 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> RE:
[Hai-users] Temp sensors accuracy
again.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">In my case, the thermostats readings
are very accurate; it is the Temp.Humid sensor’s that are
off.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">The new temp/humid sensors can not
be calibrated. The Thermostats can be if
needed.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
Wenzel, Guy [mailto:Guy.Wenzel@capella.edu] <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, January 13, 2006 12:40
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Brad<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:hai-users@tssi.com">hai-users@tssi.com</A><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [Hai-users] Temp sensors
accuracy again.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">I have
a similar setup with an Omnistat and a Temp sensor in the hallway
near the same room and see the same 3 - 5 degree difference. I
have not cheeked to see which is more correct. Does anyone else know
if it can be adjusted or just the thermostat?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
hai-users-bounces@tssi.com [mailto:hai-users-bounces@tssi.com] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Brad<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, January 13, 2006 12:19
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
hai-users@tssi.com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Hai-users] Temp sensors
accuracy again.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'"> Just
installed 3 HAI temp/humidity sensors. Also installed 3 HAI OmniStats with
remote temp sensors. The Thermostat remote sensors and the Temp/Humidity
sensors are mounted on inside walls within 6 inches of each other, each
set in a different room. Temp/Humidity sensors show temps being 3-5
degrees higher than the thermostats show.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Apparently
HAI STILL has not resolved the issue of the Temp/Humid sensor’s being
inaccurate.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">The
Humidity is reading low on them as well. Very
frustrating.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Anyone
else seeing this?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">_______________________________________________<BR>HAI-users
mailing
list<BR>HAI-users@tssi.com<BR>http://romaine.tssi.com/mailman/listinfo/hai-users<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>