From Dan at BarclaySoftware.com  Mon May 13 12:55:36 2013
From: Dan at BarclaySoftware.com (Dan Barclay)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 12:55:36 -0500
Subject: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB
In-Reply-To: <00b401cd71ee$89c22690$9d4673b0$@BarclaySoftware.com>
References: <501B3341.7060502@ocken.org>
 <7C2D2EB9A7F44B27864E9B46AE2C6C66@Bradlaptop>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE7091905CB@BY2PRD0711MB427.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <005101cd718d$d1e8e140$75baa3c0$@com>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE709190D47@BY2PRD0711MB427.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <00b401cd71ee$89c22690$9d4673b0$@BarclaySoftware.com>
Message-ID: <00f801ce5003$1294f900$37beeb00$@BarclaySoftware.com>

OK, I'm about ready to pull the trigger on switching to HLC, but now I'm
getting input that some of what I read in the HLC specs aren't really right.

 

I had intended to switch the dimmers out with 35A00-1's (now have
incandescent bulbs) then at a later date change from incandescent to LED
bulbs.  I'm told now that it won't work well, or won't work though spec
sheet says it will.

 

The 35A00-3 is similarly listed good for on/off generic florescent lights,
but I'm told it's not.

 

So, what's the scoop on this?  Anybody had these issues, or experience that
contradicts it?

 

That is, using dimmable LED's with the 35A00-1 successfully?  Or know of
problems with them?

 

Dan

 

 

 

 

From: hai-users-bounces at tssi.com [mailto:hai-users-bounces at tssi.com] On
Behalf Of Dan Barclay
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 10:09 PM
To: hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

 

Thanks for the input Tom.

 

I've tried isolating but doing it alone was nearly impossible without help,
even though I'm wired in a star (with sub-stars using the booster critters).
I only "chained" when more than one switch was in a box, and not always
then.  Every line comes back to a punch block.  I was fairly anal about it.
I even made sure the total line length on an output is within their spec,
and things worked great for a while.  The lack of any troubleshooting device
is a big problem. you have to pull wires then go somewhere else in the house
(usually downstairs for me) to see if something worked.  I have a storage
scope but don't know what the signal is supposed to look like, in addition
it is a pain to move around from box to box.    I went through a few
circuits but had little luck finding one device hogging a line.  Like Eric I
had one fail at local control (a dimmer that locked in at about 40% On), but
just the one.  It's been on for a year or so now.  I may try again now that
I have the HAI iPhone app, but I don't hold much hope.  Frustration and
disappointment levels are high and I'm not sure I'm going to be happy even
if I get most of them working now.

 

Mixing technologies isn't always the way to go, but I may do that for a
while.  Dunno yet.  I keep looking at it and just procrastinating out of
frustration.  At least with the OmniPro I do have that option to some
extent.

 

It sounds like ZWave is out, the house is substantially larger than you
mentioned.

 

One plus is that I had them wire the Romex as if they were going to put in
standard switches.  I figured if I had trouble with the initial install I
could put in a basket full of two dollar switches until I got my act
together.  FWIW, I would always recommend doing that on any new
installation.  I also ran conduit (a lot of it flex) to any wall that
couldn't be reached from an attic space (yup, a lot of it).

 

Another frustrating point is that a Lutron rep tried to sell me on Radio RA,
but it was before they had HAI communication.  They were big on scene/home
lighting but didn't communicate anybody else at the time.  I require the
lighting to communicate with HAI or it may as well not be automated so far
as I'm concerned.  Their plus was that they had more granular control, but
the ALC I experimented with was fine enough dimmer control for what I
needed.  I note that you said "RA2" so I guess I've got some catching up to
do on that.

 

It's too bad Lutron didn't have an HAI link at the time. It seems my timing
is always just a bit off (let's not talk about markets or interest rates!).

 

Yes, your input helps.  I'm still not sure what I'm going to do (or when)
but I appreciate your input.  

 

Dan

 

From: hai-users-bounces at tssi.com [mailto:hai-users-bounces at tssi.com] On
Behalf Of Tom Morgan
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 1:06 PM
To: hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

 

Something to consider about ALC:  

- One device can bring down a whole branch so it is not uncommon for an
installer to think they have more devices that are defective then really
are.  Unless you have the star hubs (most installs do not) that allow you to
electrically isolate the data connections, troubleshooting can be difficult.
Removing power from a device is not enough and air gapping the device does
not affect the communication connection.  You have to disconnect the date
connections on the loop and test each device one at a time.  Yes, I know..a
pain. 

 

- In most cases fixing an ALC installation is less painful then a
conversion.  The complexity of changing to a different technology is
dependent on how things were wired.  When I teach ALC, I always coach
dealers to have the Romex run for 3-ways even if the communication was going
to be low voltage.  If that was not done then creating 3-ways is going to
require retrofitting Romex which is potentially costly.

 

 

 

- You inquired about lighting technologies with HAI.  The four on the table
would be HAI HLC (based on UPB), Leviton Vizia RF (Z-Wave), Centralite Azela
(releasing this month based on ZigBee HA) and Lutron Radio Ra 2.

 

A quick pro/con

 

- HAI HLC -Pro: Our best selling solution with HAI controllers, programs
from PCAccess, track record for reliability, lowest cost.  Con: UPB
technology is tied to the powerline so it only provides lighting control.

 

- Leviton Vizia RF: Our top selling Z-Wave lighting system, programs via PC
software, extremely flexible and uses programming on the 8's with HAI,
allows integration of other Z-Wave products like locks.   Complete product
line with fan control and electronic low voltage.  Con: Maximum square
footage is 7,500 you have to set everything up in the Leviton software and
then type the node numbers into PCAccess.

 

- Centralite Azela:  The first ZigBee HA devices that works with HAI
(shipping in the next week or so), lighting fast communication, allows
communication with other ZigBee HA devices like locks and thermostats (see
our on-line class on 8/16), Zigbee RF is a proven networking technology.
Con: At this point it is a lighting control device, other pieces like
multi-button keypads will follow making it a lighting system.  The industry
needs more ZigBee HA Pro devices.

 

- Lutron Radio Ra2: A proven track record for reliability and acceptance
among consumers and designers.  A complete product line including LED/CFL
support.  Flexible keypad solutions.  Cons: The most expensive of the 4
systems, training required to integrate with HAI.

 

I hope that helps.

Tom Morgan 
Chief Technical Officer, Worthington Distribution 
Vice President, Worthington University
 <http://www.worthingtonu.com/> www.worthingtonu.com
570-451-4700 ext 150

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From tom at worthdist.com  Mon May 13 15:15:06 2013
From: tom at worthdist.com (Tom Morgan)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 20:15:06 +0000
Subject: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB
In-Reply-To: <00f801ce5003$1294f900$37beeb00$@BarclaySoftware.com>
References: <501B3341.7060502@ocken.org>
 <7C2D2EB9A7F44B27864E9B46AE2C6C66@Bradlaptop>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE7091905CB@BY2PRD0711MB427.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <005101cd718d$d1e8e140$75baa3c0$@com>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE709190D47@BY2PRD0711MB427.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <00b401cd71ee$89c22690$9d4673b0$@BarclaySoftware.com>
 <00f801ce5003$1294f900$37beeb00$@BarclaySoftware.com>
Message-ID: <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE7385AF8DE@BY2PRD0710MB353.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

The short answer:
The 1CFL is listed for LED and CFL.  Electrically they are almost identical, the big difference is the ramping.  Simply put, if you put an incandescent bulb on a 1CFL it will electrically work; however, you will quickly say "Why is the dimming curve so weird?"  Instead of a linear ramp rate it will start at full, appear not to dim and then drop like a brick, then off.  It doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just is probably not what you are looking for.

Tom Morgan
Chief Technical Officer, Worthington Distribution
Vice President, Worthington University
www.worthingtonu.com<http://www.worthingtonu.com/>
570-451-4700 ext 150
For orders:
800-282-8864
On-Line Catalog:
Click here to view the online e-book<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/catalog/2013ebook>
or
Download your PDF copy today!
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/catalog/download/2013WorthingtonDealerCatalog.pdf>(Most up-to-date version of the catalog)

The latest news:
www.worthingtondistribution.com/blog<http://www.worthingtondistribution.com/blog>

Follow us on:
www.twitter.com/worthdist<http://www.twitter.com/worthdist>
www.facebook.com/worthdist<http://www.facebook.com/worthdist>

Are you using 960H video technology?  960H allows 720 lines of resolution on standard coax cable.
Free 960H on-line training, May 16th at 10:00 EST.<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/university/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=219>

Please join us at the Northeast Security & Systems Contractors Expo<http://www.neacc.org/>
in Marlborough, MA on May 23, 2013

The next 5-Day Worthington University<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/university/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=206> is in Tafton, PA on June 3-7, 2013.

Looking to control home theater, lighting, HVAC and more from an iPad, iPhone, iTouch and Android?
View the recording of our new class, An Introduction to iRule<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/university/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=217> online for free

Are you offering motorized shades, drapes and blinds?  Worthington Distribution can show you how.<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/shades/>

From: hai-users-bounces at tssi.com [mailto:hai-users-bounces at tssi.com] On Behalf Of Dan Barclay
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:56 PM
To: hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

OK, I'm about ready to pull the trigger on switching to HLC, but now I'm getting input that some of what I read in the HLC specs aren't really right.

I had intended to switch the dimmers out with 35A00-1's (now have incandescent bulbs) then at a later date change from incandescent to LED bulbs.  I'm told now that it won't work well, or won't work though spec sheet says it will.

The 35A00-3 is similarly listed good for on/off generic florescent lights, but I'm told it's not.

So, what's the scoop on this?  Anybody had these issues, or experience that contradicts it?

That is, using dimmable LED's with the 35A00-1 successfully?  Or know of problems with them?

Dan




From: hai-users-bounces at tssi.com [mailto:hai-users-bounces at tssi.com] On Behalf Of Dan Barclay
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 10:09 PM
To: hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

Thanks for the input Tom.

I've tried isolating but doing it alone was nearly impossible without help, even though I'm wired in a star (with sub-stars using the booster critters).  I only "chained" when more than one switch was in a box, and not always then.  Every line comes back to a punch block.  I was fairly anal about it.  I even made sure the total line length on an output is within their spec, and things worked great for a while.  The lack of any troubleshooting device is a big problem... you have to pull wires then go somewhere else in the house (usually downstairs for me) to see if something worked.  I have a storage scope but don't know what the signal is supposed to look like, in addition it is a pain to move around from box to box.    I went through a few circuits but had little luck finding one device hogging a line.  Like Eric I had one fail at local control (a dimmer that locked in at about 40% On), but just the one.  It's been on for a year or so now.  I may try again now that I have the HAI iPhone app, but I don't hold much hope.  Frustration and disappointment levels are high and I'm not sure I'm going to be happy even if I get most of them working now.

Mixing technologies isn't always the way to go, but I may do that for a while.  Dunno yet.  I keep looking at it and just procrastinating out of frustration.  At least with the OmniPro I do have that option to some extent.

It sounds like ZWave is out, the house is substantially larger than you mentioned.

One plus is that I had them wire the Romex as if they were going to put in standard switches.  I figured if I had trouble with the initial install I could put in a basket full of two dollar switches until I got my act together.  FWIW, I would always recommend doing that on any new installation.  I also ran conduit (a lot of it flex) to any wall that couldn't be reached from an attic space (yup, a lot of it).

Another frustrating point is that a Lutron rep tried to sell me on Radio RA, but it was before they had HAI communication.  They were big on scene/home lighting but didn't communicate anybody else at the time.  I require the lighting to communicate with HAI or it may as well not be automated so far as I'm concerned.  Their plus was that they had more granular control, but the ALC I experimented with was fine enough dimmer control for what I needed.  I note that you said "RA2" so I guess I've got some catching up to do on that.

It's too bad Lutron didn't have an HAI link at the time. It seems my timing is always just a bit off (let's not talk about markets or interest rates!).

Yes, your input helps.  I'm still not sure what I'm going to do (or when) but I appreciate your input.

Dan

From: hai-users-bounces at tssi.com<mailto:hai-users-bounces at tssi.com> [mailto:hai-users-bounces at tssi.com] On Behalf Of Tom Morgan
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 1:06 PM
To: hai-users at tssi.com<mailto:hai-users at tssi.com>
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

Something to consider about ALC:
- One device can bring down a whole branch so it is not uncommon for an installer to think they have more devices that are defective then really are.  Unless you have the star hubs (most installs do not) that allow you to electrically isolate the data connections, troubleshooting can be difficult.  Removing power from a device is not enough and air gapping the device does not affect the communication connection.  You have to disconnect the date connections on the loop and test each device one at a time.  Yes, I know....a pain.

- In most cases fixing an ALC installation is less painful then a conversion.  The complexity of changing to a different technology is dependent on how things were wired.  When I teach ALC, I always coach dealers to have the Romex run for 3-ways even if the communication was going to be low voltage.  If that was not done then creating 3-ways is going to require retrofitting Romex which is potentially costly.



- You inquired about lighting technologies with HAI.  The four on the table would be HAI HLC (based on UPB), Leviton Vizia RF (Z-Wave), Centralite Azela (releasing this month based on ZigBee HA) and Lutron Radio Ra 2.

A quick pro/con

- HAI HLC -Pro: Our best selling solution with HAI controllers, programs from PCAccess, track record for reliability, lowest cost.  Con: UPB technology is tied to the powerline so it only provides lighting control.

- Leviton Vizia RF: Our top selling Z-Wave lighting system, programs via PC software, extremely flexible and uses programming on the 8's with HAI, allows integration of other Z-Wave products like locks.   Complete product line with fan control and electronic low voltage.  Con: Maximum square footage is 7,500 you have to set everything up in the Leviton software and then type the node numbers into PCAccess.

- Centralite Azela:  The first ZigBee HA devices that works with HAI (shipping in the next week or so), lighting fast communication, allows communication with other ZigBee HA devices like locks and thermostats (see our on-line class on 8/16), Zigbee RF is a proven networking technology.  Con: At this point it is a lighting control device, other pieces like multi-button keypads will follow making it a lighting system.  The industry needs more ZigBee HA Pro devices.

- Lutron Radio Ra2: A proven track record for reliability and acceptance among consumers and designers.  A complete product line including LED/CFL support.  Flexible keypad solutions.  Cons: The most expensive of the 4 systems, training required to integrate with HAI.

I hope that helps.
Tom Morgan
Chief Technical Officer, Worthington Distribution
Vice President, Worthington University
www.worthingtonu.com<http://www.worthingtonu.com/>
570-451-4700 ext 150
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From Dan at BarclaySoftware.com  Mon May 13 23:40:55 2013
From: Dan at BarclaySoftware.com (Dan Barclay)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 23:40:55 -0500
Subject: [Hai-users] OmniPro II main board upgrade?
Message-ID: <009c01ce505d$391dd4c0$ab597e40$@BarclaySoftware.com>

What are the issues regarding upgrading the OmniPro II
system board (ROM based to latest board)?

 

OK,  $830 (soon to be $1260) is an issue.  I know there is
an increase in serial connections.  Surely there must be an
increase in memory/speed but I don't see how that can be
useful without losing compatibility with earlier boards.

 

What other issues are there? Is board connection layout
changed?  That is, do piggyback boards and connections still
remain the same?  Other differences?

 

I keep changing from "leave well enough alone" to "might as
well upgrade it now".

 

Recognizing that the three most expensive words in the
English language are "might as well.", what's the experience
on this?

 

Also, when I upgrade it generally means there will probably
be an OmniPro III in the works <lol>.

 

Fire away.

 

Thanks,

Dan

 

 

 

 

 

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From Dan at BarclaySoftware.com  Mon May 13 23:41:18 2013
From: Dan at BarclaySoftware.com (Dan Barclay)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 23:41:18 -0500
Subject: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB
In-Reply-To: <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE7385AF8DE@BY2PRD0710MB353.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <501B3341.7060502@ocken.org>
 <7C2D2EB9A7F44B27864E9B46AE2C6C66@Bradlaptop>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE7091905CB@BY2PRD0711MB427.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <005101cd718d$d1e8e140$75baa3c0$@com>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE709190D47@BY2PRD0711MB427.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <00b401cd71ee$89c22690$9d4673b0$@BarclaySoftware.com>
 <00f801ce5003$1294f900$37beeb00$@BarclaySoftware.com>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE7385AF8DE@BY2PRD0710MB353.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <00aa01ce505d$46a7b660$d3f72320$@BarclaySoftware.com>

OK, thanks to all for the clarification.  In addition to
your response I received a couple of very helpful direct
emails.  I was earlier getting input that indicated there
were electrical issues (as in "smoke and noise") and I'm
glad to hear that's not the case.

 

I'm willing to deal with the difference is curves, Claude
your description was very helpful.   As dimmable LED's get
more and more mainstream I expect them to more closely
approach incandescent dimming, but I could be wrong about
that.  I have no immediate plans to switch wholesale to
LED's, but I see the time coming.  I'm not super green, but
I do get tired of climbing ladders to replace a building
full of PAR bulbs and 50k hours has a certain attraction.
One day the operating cost vs installed cost will provide a
distinct incentive, but I don't plan to change just for the
sake of greenness.

 

With respect to low level dimming, I do have a useful
application that I've come to really like.   I use a button
on a bedside scene switch to light "paths" through the
house. for that trip to the bathroom or kitchen.   About 7%
to 9% on incandescent using ALC keeps you from stepping on
the cat without losing your night vision or waking up the
boss.   It'll take some testing to see how well I can
implement that using LED's.  I don't need to do that
immediately but I didn't want to put in 40 or 50 switches
and have to change them out again later.

 

By the way, I've noticed that in order to reply to the user
group you have to use "Reply All" or the message only goes
directly to the original message.

 

Dan

 

 

From: Tom Morgan [mailto:tom at worthdist.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:15 PM
To: Dan Barclay; hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: RE: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

 

The short answer:

The 1CFL is listed for LED and CFL.  Electrically they are
almost identical, the big difference is the ramping.  Simply
put, if you put an incandescent bulb on a 1CFL it will
electrically work; however, you will quickly say "Why is the
dimming curve so weird?"  Instead of a linear ramp rate it
will start at full, appear not to dim and then drop like a
brick, then off.  It doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just
is probably not what you are looking for.

 

Tom Morgan 
Chief Technical Officer, Worthington Distribution 
Vice President, Worthington University
 <http://www.worthingtonu.com/> www.worthingtonu.com
570-451-4700 ext 150

For orders: 
800-282-8864
On-Line Catalog:
Click here to view the online e-book
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/catalog/2013ebook> 

or
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/catalog/download/20
13WorthingtonDealerCatalog.pdf> 
Download your PDF copy today!
(Most up-to-date version of the catalog)

The latest news:

www.worthingtondistribution.com/blog

 

Follow us on:

www.twitter.com/worthdist

www.facebook.com/worthdist

 

Are you using 960H video technology?  960H allows 720 lines
of resolution on standard coax cable.

Free 960H on-line training, May 16
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/university/catalog/
product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=219> th at 10:00 EST.

 

Please join us at the Northeast Security
<http://www.neacc.org/> & Systems Contractors Expo
in Marlborough, MA on May 23, 2013

 

The next
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/university/catalog/
product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=206> 5-Day Worthington
University is in Tafton, PA on June 3-7, 2013.

 

Looking to control home theater, lighting, HVAC and more
from an iPad, iPhone, iTouch and Android?

View the recording of our new class, An Introduction to
iRule
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/university/catalog/
product_info.php?products_id=217>  online for free

 

Are you offering motorized shades, drapes and blinds?
Worthington Distribution can show you how.
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/shades/> 

 

From: hai-users-bounces at tssi.com
[mailto:hai-users-bounces at tssi.com] On Behalf Of Dan Barclay
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:56 PM
To: hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

 

OK, I'm about ready to pull the trigger on switching to HLC,
but now I'm getting input that some of what I read in the
HLC specs aren't really right.

 

I had intended to switch the dimmers out with 35A00-1's (now
have incandescent bulbs) then at a later date change from
incandescent to LED bulbs.  I'm told now that it won't work
well, or won't work though spec sheet says it will.

 

The 35A00-3 is similarly listed good for on/off generic
florescent lights, but I'm told it's not.

 

So, what's the scoop on this?  Anybody had these issues, or
experience that contradicts it?

 

That is, using dimmable LED's with the 35A00-1 successfully?
Or know of problems with them?

 

Dan

 

 

 

 

From: hai-users-bounces at tssi.com
[mailto:hai-users-bounces at tssi.com] On Behalf Of Dan Barclay
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 10:09 PM
To: hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

 

Thanks for the input Tom.

 

I've tried isolating but doing it alone was nearly
impossible without help, even though I'm wired in a star
(with sub-stars using the booster critters).  I only
"chained" when more than one switch was in a box, and not
always then.  Every line comes back to a punch block.  I was
fairly anal about it.  I even made sure the total line
length on an output is within their spec, and things worked
great for a while.  The lack of any troubleshooting device
is a big problem. you have to pull wires then go somewhere
else in the house (usually downstairs for me) to see if
something worked.  I have a storage scope but don't know
what the signal is supposed to look like, in addition it is
a pain to move around from box to box.    I went through a
few circuits but had little luck finding one device hogging
a line.  Like Eric I had one fail at local control (a dimmer
that locked in at about 40% On), but just the one.  It's
been on for a year or so now.  I may try again now that I
have the HAI iPhone app, but I don't hold much hope.
Frustration and disappointment levels are high and I'm not
sure I'm going to be happy even if I get most of them
working now.

 

Mixing technologies isn't always the way to go, but I may do
that for a while.  Dunno yet.  I keep looking at it and just
procrastinating out of frustration.  At least with the
OmniPro I do have that option to some extent.

 

It sounds like ZWave is out, the house is substantially
larger than you mentioned.

 

One plus is that I had them wire the Romex as if they were
going to put in standard switches.  I figured if I had
trouble with the initial install I could put in a basket
full of two dollar switches until I got my act together.
FWIW, I would always recommend doing that on any new
installation.  I also ran conduit (a lot of it flex) to any
wall that couldn't be reached from an attic space (yup, a
lot of it).

 

Another frustrating point is that a Lutron rep tried to sell
me on Radio RA, but it was before they had HAI
communication.  They were big on scene/home lighting but
didn't communicate anybody else at the time.  I require the
lighting to communicate with HAI or it may as well not be
automated so far as I'm concerned.  Their plus was that they
had more granular control, but the ALC I experimented with
was fine enough dimmer control for what I needed.  I note
that you said "RA2" so I guess I've got some catching up to
do on that.

 

It's too bad Lutron didn't have an HAI link at the time. It
seems my timing is always just a bit off (let's not talk
about markets or interest rates!).

 

Yes, your input helps.  I'm still not sure what I'm going to
do (or when) but I appreciate your input.  

 

Dan

 

From: hai-users-bounces at tssi.com
[mailto:hai-users-bounces at tssi.com] On Behalf Of Tom Morgan
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 1:06 PM
To: hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

 

Something to consider about ALC:  

- One device can bring down a whole branch so it is not
uncommon for an installer to think they have more devices
that are defective then really are.  Unless you have the
star hubs (most installs do not) that allow you to
electrically isolate the data connections, troubleshooting
can be difficult.  Removing power from a device is not
enough and air gapping the device does not affect the
communication connection.  You have to disconnect the date
connections on the loop and test each device one at a time.
Yes, I know..a pain. 

 

- In most cases fixing an ALC installation is less painful
then a conversion.  The complexity of changing to a
different technology is dependent on how things were wired.
When I teach ALC, I always coach dealers to have the Romex
run for 3-ways even if the communication was going to be low
voltage.  If that was not done then creating 3-ways is going
to require retrofitting Romex which is potentially costly.

 

 

 

- You inquired about lighting technologies with HAI.  The
four on the table would be HAI HLC (based on UPB), Leviton
Vizia RF (Z-Wave), Centralite Azela (releasing this month
based on ZigBee HA) and Lutron Radio Ra 2.

 

A quick pro/con

 

- HAI HLC -Pro: Our best selling solution with HAI
controllers, programs from PCAccess, track record for
reliability, lowest cost.  Con: UPB technology is tied to
the powerline so it only provides lighting control.

 

- Leviton Vizia RF: Our top selling Z-Wave lighting system,
programs via PC software, extremely flexible and uses
programming on the 8's with HAI, allows integration of other
Z-Wave products like locks.   Complete product line with fan
control and electronic low voltage.  Con: Maximum square
footage is 7,500 you have to set everything up in the
Leviton software and then type the node numbers into
PCAccess.

 

- Centralite Azela:  The first ZigBee HA devices that works
with HAI (shipping in the next week or so), lighting fast
communication, allows communication with other ZigBee HA
devices like locks and thermostats (see our on-line class on
8/16), Zigbee RF is a proven networking technology.  Con: At
this point it is a lighting control device, other pieces
like multi-button keypads will follow making it a lighting
system.  The industry needs more ZigBee HA Pro devices.

 

- Lutron Radio Ra2: A proven track record for reliability
and acceptance among consumers and designers.  A complete
product line including LED/CFL support.  Flexible keypad
solutions.  Cons: The most expensive of the 4 systems,
training required to integrate with HAI.

 

I hope that helps.

Tom Morgan 
Chief Technical Officer, Worthington Distribution 
Vice President, Worthington University
 <http://www.worthingtonu.com/> www.worthingtonu.com
570-451-4700 ext 150

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From Dan at BarclaySoftware.com  Mon May 13 23:47:04 2013
From: Dan at BarclaySoftware.com (Dan Barclay)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 23:47:04 -0500
Subject: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB
In-Reply-To: <BLU174-DS15E77360E8BCFF24A761ACD4A00@phx.gbl>
References: <501B3341.7060502@ocken.org>
 <7C2D2EB9A7F44B27864E9B46AE2C6C66@Bradlaptop>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE7091905CB@BY2PRD0711MB427.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <005101cd718d$d1e8e140$75baa3c0$@com>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE709190D47@BY2PRD0711MB427.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <00b401cd71ee$89c22690$9d4673b0$@BarclaySoftware.com>
 <00f801ce5003$1294f900$37beeb00$@BarclaySoftware.com>
 <BLU174-DS15E77360E8BCFF24A761ACD4A00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00bb01ce505e$1487b8f0$3d972ad0$@BarclaySoftware.com>

Thanks!

 

A couple of follow up questions:

 

In using the 35A00-1, will I be able to (manually) set a minimum dim position after I determine what it should be?  That is, keep the level high enough to stop flickering of the LED but keep the straight curve (oxymoron? <g>).  I?m currently seeing bulbs advertised as working reliably down to 5% dim? maybe they?ll get it right by the time I really care.

 

With regard to ?not draw enough current? I see Martin?s comment regarding ?at least 50+ watts?.   Does that mean 50 equivalent watts?  Or would it require 50 actual watts (say 250 equivalent watts/3500 lumens)?  Does someone have a clear minimum load?  Most loads I run into are not near the minimum, but some accents are (though they could easily stay incandescent).  Sorry if it?s in the specs and I overlooked it.  I do that sometime, lots of info.

 

Also a technical question, just so I?ll have the right picture of what?s going on.   I have assumed these ?dimming curves? are based on RMS voltage, with the actual voltage being a 60Hz wave using a percentage off duty cycle cutoff.  Are they using active rounding of the wave to eliminate RF, or passive filtering?  Not that it actually matters, but the injuneer in me keeps asking those questions.

 

Thanks,

Dan

 

 

From: C. [mailto:cldp at hotmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:46 PM
To: Dan Barclay
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

 

Hello Dan,

 

You can use the 35A00-1 with LED but you must understand something important with LED lights.

 

If you dim BELOW a certain point, LED lights will flicker. Also, if you have low light bulb count on a circuit, meaning your circuit does not draw enough current, the LED might act strangely ie turn on by them self of you won?t be able to turn them completely off. I am not saying it will happend but it might happend.

 

If you are using the CFL/LED dimmer, they have special dimming curve and have a low dimming point limit that you can adjust in upstart. By default, the CFL/LED dimmer won?t be able to dim lower than 10%. Keep that in mind as if you are using standard quartz light bulbs, you won?t be able to get 1-9% levels.

 

You are NOT able to change the low dimming point below 10% in upstart. Regardless of what you will do, you cannot go lower than 10%.

 

Also, the CFL/LED dimmer have a different dimming curve. I had made this drawing to show another person who was about to switch to LED lighting and wanted to automate his lighting with HAI product. It was just to ?warn? the person about what to expect when using the CFL dimmers. The CDL dimmer have a minimum level startpoint of 10% and there is a strange step at the end of the dimming curve that look something like this:

 

 

cfl-std

 

Again, if you are using standard dimmer, you might have issues with low levels between 1-10% (or maybe more depending on what type of light bulb you are using) and these dimmer might not be suitable for low wattage circuits. I think you need a minimum of 50W to be safe but I might be mistaken there.

 

Hope this help a little !

 

Claude

 

 

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From looney2ns at wowway.com  Tue May 14 00:09:53 2013
From: looney2ns at wowway.com (Brad)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 00:09:53 -0500
Subject: [Hai-users] OmniPro II main board upgrade?
In-Reply-To: <009c01ce505d$391dd4c0$ab597e40$@BarclaySoftware.com>
References: <009c01ce505d$391dd4c0$ab597e40$@BarclaySoftware.com>
Message-ID: <4471976D56F849D09E4ABFD6143D3B79@Bradlaptop>

Only difference really is the additional serial port and the upgradeable firmware via download.
Every thing else is a straight forward swap out.



From: Dan Barclay 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:40 PM
To: hai-users at tssi.com 
Subject: [Hai-users] OmniPro II main board upgrade?


What are the issues regarding upgrading the OmniPro II system board (ROM based to latest board)?

 

OK,  $830 (soon to be $1260) is an issue.  I know there is an increase in serial connections.  Surely there must be an increase in memory/speed but I don't see how that can be useful without losing compatibility with earlier boards.

 

What other issues are there? Is board connection layout changed?  That is, do piggyback boards and connections still remain the same?  Other differences?

 

I keep changing from "leave well enough alone" to "might as well upgrade it now".

 

Recognizing that the three most expensive words in the English language are "might as well.", what's the experience on this?

 

Also, when I upgrade it generally means there will probably be an OmniPro III in the works <lol>.

 

Fire away.

 

Thanks,

Dan

 

 

 

 

 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
HAI-users mailing list
HAI-users at tssi.com
http://romaine.tssi.com/mailman/listinfo/hai-users
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From Dan at BarclaySoftware.com  Tue May 14 16:08:07 2013
From: Dan at BarclaySoftware.com (Dan Barclay)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 16:08:07 -0500
Subject: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB
In-Reply-To: <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE7385AF8DE@BY2PRD0710MB353.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <501B3341.7060502@ocken.org>
 <7C2D2EB9A7F44B27864E9B46AE2C6C66@Bradlaptop>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE7091905CB@BY2PRD0711MB427.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <005101cd718d$d1e8e140$75baa3c0$@com>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE709190D47@BY2PRD0711MB427.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <00b401cd71ee$89c22690$9d4673b0$@BarclaySoftware.com>
 <00f801ce5003$1294f900$37beeb00$@BarclaySoftware.com>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE7385AF8DE@BY2PRD0710MB353.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <002201ce50e7$21e227e0$65a677a0$@BarclaySoftware.com>

With regard to straight up Fluorescent fixtures (shop, garage, etc. not
CFL's), what is the recommended solution?

 

I currently use ALC relay switches for that kind of thing, but I also see
that 35A00-3 suggested for that service.  What are you guys using in that
application?   I don't mind a couple of extra bucks to use the relays, but
didn't know if there was some other advantage to using the 35A. vs the 40A.

 

Are there other considerations besides the "click" and a couple of bucks?
What is your practice?

 

Dan

 

From: Tom Morgan [mailto:tom at worthdist.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:15 PM
To: Dan Barclay; hai-users at tssi.com
Subject: RE: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

 

The short answer:

The 1CFL is listed for LED and CFL.  Electrically they are almost identical,
the big difference is the ramping.  Simply put, if you put an incandescent
bulb on a 1CFL it will electrically work; however, you will quickly say "Why
is the dimming curve so weird?"  Instead of a linear ramp rate it will start
at full, appear not to dim and then drop like a brick, then off.  It doesn't
mean it doesn't work, it just is probably not what you are looking for.

 

Tom Morgan 
Chief Technical Officer, Worthington Distribution 
Vice President, Worthington University
 <http://www.worthingtonu.com/> www.worthingtonu.com
570-451-4700 ext 150

For orders: 
800-282-8864
On-Line Catalog:
Click here to view the online e-book
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/catalog/2013ebook> 

or
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/catalog/download/2013WorthingtonDea
lerCatalog.pdf> 
Download your PDF copy today!
(Most up-to-date version of the catalog)

The latest news:

www.worthingtondistribution.com/blog

 

Follow us on:

www.twitter.com/worthdist

www.facebook.com/worthdist

 

Are you using 960H video technology?  960H allows 720 lines of resolution on
standard coax cable.

Free 960H on-line training, May 16
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/university/catalog/product_info.php
?cPath=36&products_id=219> th at 10:00 EST.

 

Please join us at the Northeast Security  <http://www.neacc.org/> & Systems
Contractors Expo
in Marlborough, MA on May 23, 2013

 

The next
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/university/catalog/product_info.php
?cPath=26&products_id=206> 5-Day Worthington University is in Tafton, PA on
June 3-7, 2013.

 

Looking to control home theater, lighting, HVAC and more from an iPad,
iPhone, iTouch and Android?

View the recording of our new class, An Introduction to iRule
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/university/catalog/product_info.php
?products_id=217>  online for free

 

Are you offering motorized shades, drapes and blinds?  Worthington
Distribution can show you how.
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/shades/> 

00 ext 150

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From tom at worthdist.com  Wed May 15 05:26:50 2013
From: tom at worthdist.com (Tom Morgan)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 10:26:50 +0000
Subject: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB
In-Reply-To: <002201ce50e7$21e227e0$65a677a0$@BarclaySoftware.com>
References: <501B3341.7060502@ocken.org>
 <7C2D2EB9A7F44B27864E9B46AE2C6C66@Bradlaptop>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE7091905CB@BY2PRD0711MB427.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <005101cd718d$d1e8e140$75baa3c0$@com>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE709190D47@BY2PRD0711MB427.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <00b401cd71ee$89c22690$9d4673b0$@BarclaySoftware.com>
 <00f801ce5003$1294f900$37beeb00$@BarclaySoftware.com>
 <A7A4CFEA4F1E5443B3BCFAC03886FDE7385AF8DE@BY2PRD0710MB353.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>,
 <002201ce50e7$21e227e0$65a677a0$@BarclaySoftware.com>
Message-ID: <262D25E6-FA27-43F4-B23C-33777D85681C@worthdist.com>

I always recommend relays.  A triad is never 100% efficient so some ballasts will not react as quickly or without a short flicker.  In the end both work; however, I have never had a compatibility issue with the relay versions.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 14, 2013, at 5:09 PM, "Dan Barclay" <Dan at BarclaySoftware.com<mailto:Dan at BarclaySoftware.com>> wrote:

With regard to straight up Fluorescent fixtures (shop, garage, etc? not CFL?s), what is the recommended solution?

I currently use ALC relay switches for that kind of thing, but I also see that 35A00-3 suggested for that service.  What are you guys using in that application?   I don?t mind a couple of extra bucks to use the relays, but didn?t know if there was some other advantage to using the 35A? vs the 40A?

Are there other considerations besides the ?click? and a couple of bucks?  What is your practice?

Dan

From: Tom Morgan [mailto:tom at worthdist.com]
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:15 PM
To: Dan Barclay; hai-users at tssi.com<mailto:hai-users at tssi.com>
Subject: RE: [Hai-users] Replacing ALC switch with UPB

The short answer:
The 1CFL is listed for LED and CFL.  Electrically they are almost identical, the big difference is the ramping.  Simply put, if you put an incandescent bulb on a 1CFL it will electrically work; however, you will quickly say "Why is the dimming curve so weird?"  Instead of a linear ramp rate it will start at full, appear not to dim and then drop like a brick, then off.  It doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just is probably not what you are looking for.

Tom Morgan
Chief Technical Officer, Worthington Distribution
Vice President, Worthington University
www.worthingtonu.com<http://www.worthingtonu.com/>
570-451-4700 ext 150
For orders:
800-282-8864
On-Line Catalog:
Click here to view the online e-book<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/catalog/2013ebook>
or
Download your PDF copy today!
<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/catalog/download/2013WorthingtonDealerCatalog.pdf>(Most up-to-date version of the catalog)
The latest news:
www.worthingtondistribution.com/blog<http://www.worthingtondistribution.com/blog>

Follow us on:
www.twitter.com/worthdist<http://www.twitter.com/worthdist>
www.facebook.com/worthdist<http://www.facebook.com/worthdist>

Are you using 960H video technology?  960H allows 720 lines of resolution on standard coax cable.
Free 960H on-line training, May 16th at 10:00 EST.<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/university/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=219>

Please join us at the Northeast Security & Systems Contractors Expo<http://www.neacc.org/>
in Marlborough, MA on May 23, 2013

The next 5-Day Worthington University<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/university/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=206> is in Tafton, PA on June 3-7, 2013.

Looking to control home theater, lighting, HVAC and more from an iPad, iPhone, iTouch and Android?
View the recording of our new class, An Introduction to iRule<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/university/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=217> online for free

Are you offering motorized shades, drapes and blinds?  Worthington Distribution can show you how.<http://www2.worthingtondistribution.com/shades/>
00 ext 150
_______________________________________________
HAI-users mailing list
HAI-users at tssi.com<mailto:HAI-users at tssi.com>
http://romaine.tssi.com/mailman/listinfo/hai-users
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