[Hai-users] Problem with ALC lighting on OmniPro II
Dan Butterfield
dan at butterfields.net
Thu Mar 20 13:36:51 CDT 2008
I appreciate the troubleshooting suggestions, Mark! I agree that a properly monitored and maintained X10 system can be extremely reliable. My issues over the years with X10 relates more to the reliability of the individual units (and I know that if you pay more for higher end units, this is less of a problem), which in my experience have a high failure rate (at least compared to a regular light switch!), as well as the fragility of the X10 network. The configuration of electrical devices (computers, UPS's, AV equipment, etc) regularly changes in my house, and this often means I have subsequent X10 failures that I need to track down offending changes, move or add filters, etc.
So by no means do I want to imply that X10 is inherently random or failure prone. However, I did have an impression that ALC should be more of a "set it and forget it" kind of thing with less ongoing troubleshooting needed, because of its dedicated isolated network. Thus my statement! However, after my most recent experience, perhaps the operable work here is DID, since apparently ALC is prone to its own set of problems.
I appreciate Tom's comment on possible heat issues causing switches to turn off, since a few of my switches are definitely crammed into their j-box enclosures. However, I am definitely having spontaneous turn-on issues as well... I returned today from a one night campout to find the ALC dining room light had turned on in our absence. Poltergeists?
- Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: MARK HIMES
To: Brad
Cc: HAI-users at tssi.com
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Problem with ALC lighting on OmniPro II
I was expressing his point about "I have definitely seen this kind of behavior from
X-10 switches, and kind of expect it there."
His problem may not necessarily be an ALC "only" related problems.
I was also expressing troubleshooting techniques that have worked for me
FOR MANY MANY years !
And if I've learned anything in my 28 years of troubleshooting computers
(mainframe, large minicomputers, and PC's), you need to isolate and repair
ALL KNOW PROBLEMS FIRST - in order to get to the obscure problems,
and/or fixing know problems has been highly effective in "automatically"
resolving other intermittent problems.
----- Original Message -----
From: Brad
To: HAI-users at tssi.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Problem with ALC lighting on OmniPro II
I fail to see what a discussion about X-10 has to do with ALC problems.
----- Original Message -----
From: MARK HIMES
To: HAI-users at tssi.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 2:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Hai-users] Problem with ALC lighting on OmniPro II
That's really interesting. I have an Omni-Pro I, connected to a Stargate
system via serial port, for many years. The Stargate and the Omni both
have all (or most) of the X-10 addresses configured. In the case of my
Omni (I), it only allows 1/2 of the whole X10 addressing range (128 addresses
instead of the full 256). I have about 220 X10 addresses configured in Stargate,
So the Stargate has 99% of all these exclusively programmed for use in the Stargate.
My Omni-P has about 8 X10 addresses that it will respond to but NONE of the
X10 addresses are programmed to be transmitted by Omni. I programmed the
Omni to allow commands to be SENT TO STARGATE that (eventually)
trigger an X10 transmission FROM the Stargate. This is so that I could
be sure I never had any X10 "collisions" from both of these devices and kept
my programming sanity at a "sane" level.
I have NEVER had random X10 devices go on/off as randomly as your
experiencing. However, I have had on rare occasions 1 SINGLE receiver/device
act up and using my Monterey X10 troubleshooter, found the bad receiver
and/or device (1 address, 1 house code 1 number). On a couple of rare conditions
I found a bunch of device addresses on the SAME house code causing a lot of grief.
Again, some troubleshooting with the tool, turning off stuff, etc and found that
one of my many 16-button consoles was transmitted random garbage and
replaced it to get back to NORMAL. And a couple of times, many years ago when
I was first programming the Stargate I discovered a several "bugs" (all mine) in the
software. Some were easy and some were hard to find. but my Stargate
X10 transmissions AND programming have been solid for many years.
SOOOOOOoooooo. You didn't say how many devices or house code
addresses you had, but make a list of all of them and make sure that
some or ALL of them are truly random.
If all or most all are on the same house code, you might have another
transmitter somewhere acting up on that SAME house code.
If some of the single device addresses are "ALWAYS" part of your
random problem and others are NEVER a problem, you might have some
devices/receivers that are bad (receiver, device, loose connections).
And you might also have an address transmitter other than Omni (console)
or a single device, screwing all the other devices on the same house
code) I.e. mixture of single device failures along with 1 or more
transmitting device failures (Other than Omni). Always keep in mind
how many devices that you use ARE ALSO an X10 transmitter !!
Are all the addresses (house codes and device codes) that are part
of the random actions on the SAME PHASE of your power lines ?
What do you use for a Phase coupler ? That could be part of your
randomness problem.
I noticed you said" I have definitely seen this kind of behavior from
X-10 switches, and kind of expect it there. I EXPECT A NEAR
PERFECT SYSTEM ! That begs the question "HOW LONG" have you
been allowing this randomness to occur ....WITH OUT CHECKING
THEM OUT ????? THOROUGHLY ?????
Now the biggie. I have an Omni (I) but I NEVER have programmed
any X10 transmission activity into my Omni. MY reason is more
simpler that just sanity. My Omni programming "capabilities" are
hugely inferior to Stargate. I don't see that an OMNI 11 could have
THAT much difference than Omni I. Actually I upgraded mine to
an Aegis many years ago.
So I suggest you FIRST make a LIST of all the addresses you are using
and track down the ones that DO and the ones that DON'T act up.
This may take a while (that's the nature of "random"), From personal
experience over the many years, that is the best first step I EVER
take. It allowed you me see the scope of a whole problem and help
better isolate the next steps to take. That's part of analyzing
the scope and nature of a "System" and its problems.
So AFTER you determine ALL THE ADDRESS that DO randomly operate
and all the ADDRESS THAT NEVER randomly operate, THEN you have a
better chance if isolating ..... What do all the randomly acting devices
have in common, (or if its easier, maybe ask what is common about the
ones that NEVER act up) ?
Now if you've truly proven there is no single X10 device bad, or something
messing up a whole X10 house code of addresses and that EVERY device
code you are using is acting up and both both phases are experiencing
problems .... AND your program is truly bug free then I'd say
something goofy is going on with your Omni. If THAT happens,
try another KNOWN GOOD power adapter (tat supplies power to your
Omni). Noisy or flakey power supplies are notorious for causing
intermittent problems. But if that's the case, then ALL your addresses should be affected.
Also consider that your X10 Power Line Interface (converts the Omni 10
commands to/from the power line, (or loose connection, bad wire, etc etc).
The only thing I can truly testify is that I have had several years
now with ABSOLUTELY NO X10 Ghosts. It took a few years of
troubleshooting to get the "marginal" or even solid failing devices
off my complete system and cleaning up all software bugs and
an occasional wall-wart. That's 190+ single X10 device/address units,
over 14 X-10 transmitting devices/consoles, most with 16 buttons
and 25 "virtual/indirect (mostly software)" X10 addresses .
No random here.
Hope all this ranting gives you a some ideas ?!
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Butterfield
To: HAI Users Group
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 12:38 PM
Subject: [Hai-users] Problem with ALC lighting on OmniPro II
I recently added some ALC lights (wired via cat-5 to an OmniPro II), and am
experiencing some odd lighting behavior. The lights will periodically
spontaneously turn on or off (primarily off). This happens when no other
activity is occurring in the OmniPro II (e.g. no one is turning lights on or
off, and no timed events are triggering), and is random and unpredictable.
It typically is the case of a light turning off some minutes or hours after
manually turning it on. It occurs with different lights in the house, so
doesn't seem to be tied to one switch.
I am going to start trouble shooting this by disconnecting different
switches from the OmniPro II to see if some switch is injecting commands
into the system in some way, although with the infrequent intermittent
nature of the problem, it'll be a long slow process of elimination. I have
tried to eliminate all programming that references lights, to try to take
some kind of programming error out of the equation. However, has anyone
ever encountered this kind of behavior before? Could bad connections to the
switches cause this? Is cat-5 sufficient for ALC signalling, or is it
possibile I am picking up some interference?
I have definately seen this kind of behavior from X-10 switches, and kind of
expect it there, but was surprised to see it in an ALC system. I had hoped
it would be more reliable! I have a bunch more switches to install, but am
holding up because of this problem.
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